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biker

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« on: Apr 27, 03, 11:26:24 pm CDT »

Another lesson learned the hard way! Always be careful what you ask for, you just may get it!
One of the many headaches that George W. Bush inherited from his predecessor was the Puerto Rican Island of Vieques. In the waning years of the Clinton administration, protesters demanded that the U.S. Navy abandon bombing and naval gun fire exercises that had taken place on the largely uninhabited island for nearly seventy years.
It became a leftist cause. Liberal icons bumped into one another to fly to Puerto Rico, boat over to the island, trespass (but never on a day that there was an exercise scheduled) and get arrested for the benefit of the New York Times or Newsweek. They included the Reverend Al Sharpton, Mrs. Jesse Jackson, Joan Baez, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Edward Olomos, Michael Moore and Ramsey Clark, just to name a few. Hillary Clinton, then running for the U.S. Senate in New York, chastised the U.S. Navy for not bowing to the "will of the citizens of Puerto Rico", until her husband, a week before the election, issued an executive order to phase out the facility by 2003, despite recommendations to the contrary by his own Secretary of Defense and the Chief of Naval Operations.
             In 2002, the bombing exercises were transferred to an Air Force bombing range in central Florida, not far from the Jacksonville and Pensacola Naval Air Stations. In January, many of the protesters were back in Puerto Rico, celebrating the final bombing exercise on Vieques and waved Puerto Rican flags and placards that read "U.S. Navy, get out of Puerto Rico."
             On February 21, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld announced that the U.S. Navy will close the Roosevelt Roads Naval Air Station in Puerto Rico in 2004, eliminating 1200 civilian jobs as well as 700 military positions. This naval facility is estimated to have put nearly $300 million annually into the local economy.
             The next day a stunned Governor Sila Calderon, held a news conference in San Juan, protesting the base closure as a serious blow to Commonwealth's fragile economy. The governor stated that "The people of Puerto Rico don't now or never did have an interest in closing the Vieques bombing range or the Roosevelt Roads naval base. My government is interested in both staying in Puerto Rico."
             When asked, Admiral Robert J. Natter, Commander-on Chief, Western Atlantic Command, said, "Without Vieques, I see no further need for the facility at Roosevelt Roads. None."
             So, Yanqui go home? Fine. But we'll take our dollars with us. Hasta la vista . . . baby!
 
----------------------------------
 
On February 21, the Secretary of Defense also announced that starting this year, the U.S. European Command would begin moving most if not all of its active combat and support units from bases in Germany to others being established in Poland, The Czech Republic, Hungary and Turkey to "better position them for rapid deployment to likely hot spots in those parts of the world".
             Immediately the business and government leaders in the German states of Hesse, Rhineland and Wurttemburg, protested the loss of nearly $6 billion in revenue each year from the bases and manpower to be displaced.
             A spokesman for the Foreign Ministry speculated that the move may be "what the Americans call 'payback' for the actions of this government in opposing military action in Iraq."
             Whatever. Does anyone know the German translation for "Hasta la vista . . . baby?"
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Locksley

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« Reply #1 on: Apr 28, 03, 06:09:18 am CDT »

I think "Auf Weidersehen leibchen" will do( not too sure of the spelling)
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 28, 03, 07:38:11 am CDT »

I'm not surprised. Whether its CONUS or overseas, government and people b!tch to h3ll and high water about bases and the troops. But when there's a decision to close them, then they start complaining about their lost revenue.
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 28, 03, 09:07:00 am CDT »

First off!! HI Biker....We've missed you!!!!!!

Second, and on topic.....this is the classic problem, they all bitch they don't want us around, but they ALL want our money.

They all claim they don't want our military present, but when they need our help...suddenly it's welcome GI Joe!!!

I say, call all our troops back, close our borders and line them with them all... don't give any military or monitary aid.....let them all do it their way and see how they feel at the end of the test.

(A tad too complicated to *really* do, I know...but amusing to imagine...)
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Gardo

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« Reply #4 on: Apr 28, 03, 09:58:12 pm CDT »

Quote from: "TinkTheBodiceGoddess"
First off!! HI Biker....We've missed you!!!!!!

Second, and on topic.....this is the classic problem, they all bitch they don't want us around, but they ALL want our money.

They all claim they don't want our military present, but when they need our help...suddenly it's welcome GI Joe!!!

I say, call all our troops back, close our borders and line them with them all... don't give any military or monitary aid.....let them all do it their way and see how they feel at the end of the test.

(A tad too complicated to *really* do, I know...but amusing to imagine...)


First off Tink you know I love you. and with that being said.... what are you dence I was born in PR and for one the military had taken the best land on Vieques from the farmers. I have been there and the PR people are treated like second class on the lil island.

If you dont know more than what your professors are pumping into your mind, search the truth before you speak half assed. I lived there and have seen it. Yeah the military provides alot of economy to the island and I don't want to see them go from there but PR has been part of the US for over a century as a common wealth such as US fiji and Guam as well as other areas that most people don't know.  What about them should we do the same.

You grew up here, you prob. don't know what its like outside the US! I do and there is more to this than anyone knows. There are people here in the continental US that want to Disban the Military and you can ask anyone who has served, even in our own country there are those that look down at the uniform or that they are unhappy that the military has the land or whatever.  

 I was in the Army and Damn proud to have served. It was unfortunate that there was a death on the lil island but the guy was trespassing to begin with. You want to place blame then blame these people, New York Times or Newsweek. They included the Reverend Al Sharpton, Mrs. Jesse Jackson, Joan Baez, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Edward Olomos, Michael Moore and Ramsey Clark,  Hillary Clinton that got a hold of the issue and help blow this out of proportion.

Puertio Ricans pay taxes just like everyone else in the US they are citizens of the US.

And with that I do love you Tink, but this is an issue close to home for me and I want the military to stay as does alot of people in PR
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biker

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« Reply #5 on: Apr 28, 03, 11:21:13 pm CDT »

Hey Tink,
Im still not back, just web access has gotten a little bit better.

gardo is right in a lot of US states, soldiers sailor marines and airman are considered 2nd class citzens. norfolk Va is one of those places. ( I had a car salesman walk away from me once he found out i was Navy. never mind I had $17K in the bank)

Hes also right in the fact that mostly left wingers wanted it closed. yes farming land was taken, but was the land bought?/ that I dont know Gardo. But with Viegues island not bieng used, I dont blame them for closing Rosy roads. It will hurt the ecomony so much there. and if its that fragile, it might collapse.

Something I really dont want to see has I think it will have a domino affect to the mainland.
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 29, 03, 08:13:09 am CDT »

Quote from: "biker"
Hey Tink,
Im still not back, just web access has gotten a little bit better.

gardo is right in a lot of US states, soldiers sailor marines and airman are considered 2nd class citzens. norfolk Va is one of those places. ( I had a car salesman walk away from me once he found out i was Navy. never mind I had $17K in the bank)

Hes also right in the fact that mostly left wingers wanted it closed. yes farming land was taken, but was the land bought?/ that I dont know Gardo. But with Viegues island not bieng used, I dont blame them for closing Rosy roads. It will hurt the ecomony so much there. and if its that fragile, it might collapse.

Something I really dont want to see has I think it will have a domino affect to the mainland.


My uncle was also in the Navy stationed at Norfolk.  Always wore his uniform out, before he retired.  I don't remember him ever getting treated like that when I was around, or ever mentioning it, either.  Then again, he had a large family with three daughters with him, nearly wherever he went, so the family being around might have had some mitigating effect.

I had no idea Norfolk was like that.  Ever time I was ever there, it really seemed like the community was supportive of the base.

But, you'd know better than I!
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VelvetDuv

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« Reply #7 on: Apr 29, 03, 11:15:45 am CDT »

Uh - I certainly don't want to speak for Tink - she's more than capable of expressing her own opinions - but I think you're railing at her because you misunderstood her post.  Knowing her, she's clearly pro-American and pro-military.  I *think* she was expressing her frustration and opinion (which I and many here share) that the U.S. is perceived and treated like ugly Americans by the very same governmental entities/countries/people we pump billions and trillions of dollars to.  The Phillipines is a classic example.  Iraq another.  We play the role of big brother - fighting everyone else's fights, then mother by cleaning up everyone else's mess and what do we get for it?  Global criticism.

I *think* what she was saying is, "fine, you kids go fight your own battles; pay your own bills; clean up your own mess.  We've got plenty of things we could do right here at home with all of the resources we've been doling out to you pukin' ingrates."

As for Puerto Rico, The U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, etc., maybe I'm strategically ignorant, but seems to me we ought either find out if these entities want to become states or want to remain independent countries and not try to have it both ways.  It also seems to me it ought to be up to the citizens of these islands to choose - without coersion or interference from within or without.

I really do believe Tink is singing to your choir, not preaching against it.  And I'm with her in her frustration of the international U.S.-bashing that goes on.  Sadly, isolationism isn't a viable option in a global community, but wouldn't it be nice to work to solve our own problems before trying to solve those of the rest of the world?!

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« Reply #8 on: Apr 29, 03, 12:41:37 pm CDT »

I was in the Army overseas, and I can say that the majority of the younger soldiers DO act like the "ugly American" when they are in another country. When you interact with the locals (which I did a lot, but a lot of people avoid like the plague) they learn who the nice ones are, and that we're not all the same.
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« Reply #9 on: Apr 29, 03, 01:34:04 pm CDT »

Quote from: "Gardo"
Quote from: "TinkTheBodiceGoddess"
First off!! HI Biker....We've missed you!!!!!!

Second, and on topic.....this is the classic problem, they all bitch they don't want us around, but they ALL want our money.

They all claim they don't want our military present, but when they need our help...suddenly it's welcome GI Joe!!!

I say, call all our troops back, close our borders and line them with them all... don't give any military or monitary aid.....let them all do it their way and see how they feel at the end of the test.

(A tad too complicated to *really* do, I know...but amusing to imagine...)


First off Tink you know I love you. and with that being said.... what are you dence I was born in PR and for one the military had taken the best land on Vieques from the farmers. I have been there and the PR people are treated like second class on the lil island.

If you dont know more than what your professors are pumping into your mind, search the truth before you speak half assed. I lived there and have seen it. Yeah the military provides alot of economy to the island and I don't want to see them go from there but PR has been part of the US for over a century as a common wealth such as US fiji and Guam as well as other areas that most people don't know.  What about them should we do the same.

You grew up here, you prob. don't know what its like outside the US! I do and there is more to this than anyone knows. There are people here in the continental US that want to Disban the Military and you can ask anyone who has served, even in our own country there are those that look down at the uniform or that they are unhappy that the military has the land or whatever.  

 I was in the Army and Damn proud to have served. It was unfortunate that there was a death on the lil island but the guy was trespassing to begin with. You want to place blame then blame these people, New York Times or Newsweek. They included the Reverend Al Sharpton, Mrs. Jesse Jackson, Joan Baez, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Edward Olomos, Michael Moore and Ramsey Clark,  Hillary Clinton that got a hold of the issue and help blow this out of proportion.

Puertio Ricans pay taxes just like everyone else in the US they are citizens of the US.

And with that I do love you Tink, but this is an issue close to home for me and I want the military to stay as does alot of people in PR


Hey Gardo...love you too. I understand where you are coming from. I'm not pretending to know what it's like to live outside the US or to know exactly first-hand what  people, like the ones in this situation, have and still go through.

However, to be clear I am NOT parroting a sentiment that I heard in class from a professor. (Dude, I'm a graphics grad major...not much political discussions going on in the lab...) I form my own opinions. Go back and read my previous posts on other topics to see that *I* am usually the one stating that is what OTHERS do.

However, if you re-read my post, you'll see it was brief, concise and I *did* add at the end that I knew my sentiment was a tad too simplistic for reality. ie: I was not and am not seriously suggesting that we should say F-off to everyone else and pull our military out of every location that isn't one of the 50 states.

I was simply venting. I obviously touched a nerve with you. Sorry, it's going to happen here and there. We can't agree on everything....
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« Reply #10 on: Apr 29, 03, 01:48:06 pm CDT »

Quote from: "VelvetDuv"
Uh - I certainly don't want to speak for Tink - she's more than capable of expressing her own opinions - but I think you're railing at her because you misunderstood her post.  Knowing her, she's clearly pro-American and pro-military.  I *think* she was expressing her frustration and opinion (which I and many here share) that the U.S. is perceived and treated like ugly Americans by the very same governmental entities/countries/people we pump billions and trillions of dollars to.  The Phillipines is a classic example.  Iraq another.  We play the role of big brother - fighting everyone else's fights, then mother by cleaning up everyone else's mess and what do we get for it?  Global criticism.

I *think* what she was saying is, "fine, you kids go fight your own battles; pay your own bills; clean up your own mess.  We've got plenty of things we could do right here at home with all of the resources we've been doling out to you pukin' ingrates."

As for Puerto Rico, The U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, etc., maybe I'm strategically ignorant, but seems to me we ought either find out if these entities want to become states or want to remain independent countries and not try to have it both ways.  It also seems to me it ought to be up to the citizens of these islands to choose - without coersion or interference from within or without.

I really do believe Tink is singing to your choir, not preaching against it.  And I'm with her in her frustration of the international U.S.-bashing that goes on.  Sadly, isolationism isn't a viable option in a global community, but wouldn't it be nice to work to solve our own problems before trying to solve those of the rest of the world?!

daBaroness


Baroness btw...knows me well. (Geez, I'm telling ya...somehow we *are* related Hon  :wink: )

Didn't even scroll down before the previous post to read the rest *because* I had to reply to Gardo the minute I saw him ranting at me to clear things up. So I only just now saw that Baroness had pretty much explained exactly what my mind-set was when I posted thre first time.

BTW...To answer something you said Baroness...these common wealths *have* voted whether or not to become states. Last time PR voted they (obviously) said no. I don't think it matters either way to the topic at hand, but figured I'd answer that question....

I gotta add here too, I don't appreciate being called dense Gardo. You KNOW I'm not. Name calling/insulting someone isn't exactly a viable way to argue a point...especially if you want people to listen to what you have to say. I've said it before...that kinda stuff just detracts from what may very well be a good point you're trying to express.
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